On the one hand there are the straight forward answers that fighting is illegal and the spiritual answer that violence only breeds violence and it achieves nothing.
However the argument put forward by the kids was that unless this guy "gets banged out" he will do it again. He is a known trouble maker and a situation has arisen where he can be sorted out. There is racist stuff involved too so it's an opportunity for the asian lads to make a stand.
I pointed out that this is a racist way of thinking as only racists see the difference between "asian lads" or "white lads". There is no such thing as racism when all people are equal. Unfortunately this argument falls on deaf ears because the establishment in UK is racist in exactly its recognition of racism! Kids have been taught to think in these terms of races and racial equality by the establishment. No progress here.
I also pointed out that it is simpler to ignore the threats and jibes. It takes two to fight so if you back down then there is no fight. I also quoted Lao-Tze that if you stay ordinary you avoid trouble. The answer was that if this guy isn't dealt with things will only get worse and if you back down you look weak you encourage more trouble. Again it is hard to argue with this since the first argument was used by the government in Afghanistan and Iraq and the second in the standard government response to terrorism. No progress here.
One solution offered was to involve the police with this trouble maker. This answer is the most revealing. The kids said that if the police would actually do something they would not fight. But the police won't so they need to do something. I've seen exactly the same thing when I questioned a lad who stole my bike. I asked him to think how he would feel if someone stole his. He said "it hurts" speaking in the present about numerous actual events at school. The main reason for youth gangs and disturbance in UK it seems is that we have a class of people who are outside the law - the children. They therefore feel the need to arm themselves and take care of things themselves. How ironic that the idea of kids not being responsible for their actions has led to kids having to be responsible for justice. You can't argiue with this either.
There are three failures in the thinking of British institutions here which I can't argue with. I had no choice but to let the fight happen.
It also follows from my analysis of "groups" in this blog that a fight is actually a very logical and essential part of the process of group membership and status. These kids are not very smart - they use their fists - smarter people use money, big houses and cars etc, qualifications, property law and general law to exactly the same effect. The institutional violence that exists in the workplace and in the class systems and inequalities of society (the "negative happiness" as I believe it is called) is beyond measure but it is normalised because this is what human society is all about. Again I cannot argue. I can only hope to show them the value of peace and non-violence as a solution in the future.
Ghandi btw I don't believe found the solution of non-violence. Civil disobedience is violence just a passive form. Jesus teaches us to turn the other cheek and forgive. He died without hatred a criminals death. That is the level of tolerance, patience and forgiveness that is required of shanti and ahimsa. We can't see injustice against ourselves if we are to see compassion for others. The moment we start to seek self-preservation and justice for ourself is the moment we lose the battle to peace and non-violence. The very concepts of justice and injustice - the very separating of actors into victims and perpetrators - is born of violence and ill will. I have put the point to the kids and will continue to put the point of which is the bigger man? - the man who takes a hundred punches with indifference or the man who gets angry and protects himself and others from even the first punch?
=== Update 17/10/09
I should trust nature more. Exactly as we would expect in animals the competitors compare each other and only risk engagement if they consider the chance and benefits of winning to outweigh the chance and cost of losing. Battles only occur between equal competitors. The "asian lads" provided a greater show of strength and no fight ever occurred. I often do wonder why we need a law when nature provides its own tried and tested Law. Am I right to consider the "establishment" as just a bunch of gangsters who have a protection racket going (rent/taxes) whose "law" is simply a means of control? These kids/hooligans conducted themselves in a perfectly rational and sensible fashion along the same lines as the governments do... yet one group is working illegally while the other is justified?
This is where the contradictions observed above occur. The establishment follows the Natural Law (of war, state violence etc) while its subjects are supposed to follow an artificial law imposed on them through war/state violence etc (consider modern Iraq was built from a war). The kids it seems do have every "right" in Natural Law to war and violence even if that contradicts the artificial law. The apparent civilised "peace" is then just the result of an "establishment" that is considered so strong that no-one ever squares up to it in fight. We always run away from the "establishment". This would be the process occuring in Iraq where factions are still fighting it out to find who is the strongest establishment. The one the people become most "afraid" of will be the "government". Altho "afraid" is a two edged weapon and we often feel "safe" due to "our" government's fearfulness. This is why governments need enemies so that their intrinsic violence can be seen as a force for good.
Yet as argued at length the establishment doesn't exist! It is an illusion that we create for ourselves with ourselves (since we are the very people who work in the police, army, legal system etc)! The true Law (the Law of God and NULL) is quite above all this for those who would see. I'll see if the kids ever understand that...
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