The Western World is pure insanity. Its like a bunch a school kids formed a club (around about 1776) and made up some ideas and then killed anyone who disagreed with them. So you have the land clearance and murder of as many as 30 million American Indians, then you have endless global wars culminating in WW1 and WW2 and now against Russia WW3. The West will not stop until ever part of the globe is governed by this ideology.
But what is it?
On the front page of the Daily Mail Weekend, Alan Carr declaring that "My new goal in life? To find love again."
Now this headline assumes we know what the hell he is going on about. What are "life goals" what is "love"?
As previously blogger this gets onto page in its most famous version in the writings of Adam Smith and his "Wealth of Nations" (1776).
So I went onto ChatGPT to thrash this issue out and below you see the complete nonsense of the West and how we are all brought up in an ideolog that is completely circular, unjustified and dogmatic.
We thought with the overthrow of the Church we were free from magical mediaeval oppressive dogma, but it has just giot worse. People now spend their whole lives from birth to death "progressing" and "improving" until they die and the worms get them. At no point do people get off the travellator and just look around and think you know what I'm happy where I am. And I'm happy where I am is what people thought anyway long before Adam Smith.
A chat with ChatGPT on improvement and progress.
User
why does Adam Smith focus on improvement?
ChatGPT
Adam Smith, a renowned economist and philosopher, is known for his influential work, "The Wealth of Nations." In this seminal work, Smith emphasizes the significance of improvement in economic systems and societies. There are several reasons why Smith emphasizes improvement:
Economic Growth: Adam Smith believed that improvement and progress were vital for achieving economic growth. He argued that through continuous improvement in productivity, efficiency, and innovation, nations could increase their wealth and overall standard of living. Smith recognized that economic growth brought numerous benefits, such as higher wages, increased employment opportunities, and improved living conditions for the population.
Division of Labor: Smith extensively discussed the concept of division of labor, emphasizing its role in driving improvement. According to Smith, when workers specialize in specific tasks, they become more skilled and efficient, leading to increased productivity. This increased productivity results in greater output and economic advancement. Smith recognized that improvement in the division of labor was crucial for economic development.
Market Mechanism: Adam Smith advocated for a free market system, where individuals pursue their self-interest through voluntary exchange. He believed that this system encouraged improvement by promoting competition and innovation. In a free market, businesses are motivated to improve their products, reduce costs, and provide better services to attract customers. This continuous drive for improvement benefits both producers and consumers, leading to overall economic progress.
Wealth Accumulation: Smith viewed improvement as a means of accumulating wealth. He argued that nations could enhance their wealth by investing in productive activities, such as infrastructure development, education, and technological advancements. By continually striving for improvement, societies could generate more wealth, which could be reinvested for further progress and prosperity.
Social Welfare: While Smith recognized the importance of individual self-interest and economic improvement, he also highlighted the role of improvement in enhancing social welfare.
User
But are humans not already wealthy in themselves? I mean to be a human is already more wealth than we can ever achieve through labour.
ChatGPT
It is true that being human inherently brings certain advantages and qualities that can be considered valuable. Human life has inherent dignity and worth, encompassing aspects such as consciousness, emotions, relationships, and the capacity for personal growth and fulfillment. These aspects of human existence are indeed priceless and cannot be quantified solely in economic terms.
However, when Adam Smith discusses wealth and improvement, he primarily focuses on material wealth and economic well-being. Smith's perspective is rooted in the context of economic systems and the allocation of resources. He emphasizes the importance of improving economic conditions to enhance living standards and promote societal progress.
Smith recognized that material wealth and economic improvement contribute to providing individuals with the means to meet their basic needs, access education and healthcare, and pursue opportunities for personal development. In his view, improvement in economic conditions and the accumulation of wealth were critical for fostering prosperity, supporting social welfare programs, and creating a foundation for a better quality of life.
It is important to acknowledge that while material wealth and economic improvement can bring benefits and opportunities, they are not the sole determinants of human well-being. Factors such as health, relationships, personal fulfillment, and a sense of purpose are also essential aspects of a meaningful and fulfilling life. Thus, a holistic understanding of wealth encompasses both material and non-material dimensions.
User
So Adam Smith focusing only on material wealth may mean that he reduces holistic wealth?
ChatGPT
Adam Smith's focus on material wealth in his economic analysis does not necessarily imply a reduction of holistic wealth. It is important to remember that Smith was primarily an economist and his work, particularly "The Wealth of Nations," aimed to examine and understand the principles and mechanisms that drive economic systems.
Smith's emphasis on material wealth and economic improvement was rooted in his belief that economic prosperity and the efficient allocation of resources could lead to overall societal progress and well-being. He recognized that material wealth, when properly harnessed and distributed, could provide individuals with the means to pursue education, healthcare, leisure, and other non-material aspects that contribute to a good life.
While Smith's focus on material wealth may appear narrow when considered in isolation, it is crucial to recognize that he acknowledged the importance of non-material aspects of life. In his other major work, "The Theory of Moral Sentiments," Smith explored the moral and social dimensions of human existence. He emphasized the significance of empathy, morality, and social connections in fostering human flourishing.
Therefore, it is more accurate to view Adam Smith's perspective as a framework for understanding the economic aspects of societal development. While his analysis may primarily revolve around material wealth, it is not intended to dismiss or diminish the importance of non-material aspects of human well-being. Holistic wealth encompasses both material and non-material dimensions, and understanding and addressing them in tandem is crucial for a comprehensive understanding of human prosperity.
User
The opening axiom of Adam Smith is that we do not already have enough. Clearly by the 18th Century when Adam Smith was writing we had enough: we had Adam Smith for example. Was not Adam Smith himself enough, or was Adam Smith somehow defective and in need of improvement and his value needed to increase?
ChatGPT
Adam Smith's opening axiom in "The Wealth of Nations" is not a statement suggesting that individuals are inherently lacking or insufficient. Instead, it reflects the understanding that human wants and needs are insatiable, meaning that people desire and strive for more than they currently possess. This observation aligns with the fundamental principles of economics, which explore how societies allocate scarce resources to fulfill unlimited wants and needs.
When Smith states that "the annual labor of every nation is the fund that supplies it with all the necessaries and conveniences of life," he is referring to the role of labor and productive activity in generating wealth and satisfying human wants. He argues that economic improvement and the accumulation of wealth can enhance the overall standard of living and provide individuals with a greater range of goods and services.
The statement does not imply that individuals or societies are inherently deficient or flawed. Instead, it recognizes the innate human drive for progress, innovation, and the pursuit of a better life. Adam Smith himself was not suggesting that he, as an individual, was inadequate or in need of improvement. Rather, he was analyzing economic systems and exploring how societies can generate and distribute wealth to improve the well-being of their members.
It is essential to distinguish between the concepts of material wealth and personal value or worth. Adam Smith's focus on improvement and wealth does not diminish the value of individuals as human beings but rather aims to examine the mechanisms by which societies can enhance economic conditions and provide opportunities for personal and societal betterment.
User
If human wants and needs are insatiable then why bother to satiate them. Its an Sisyphine task and leads to a wasted life.
ChatGPT
The concept that human wants and needs are insatiable does not imply that attempting to fulfill them is futile or leads to a wasted life. While it is true that our desires may be limitless, the pursuit of fulfilling our wants and needs is an essential aspect of human motivation and progress. Here are a few points to consider:
Satisfaction and Well-Being: The pursuit of fulfilling our wants and needs can lead to a sense of satisfaction, accomplishment, and overall well-being. Setting goals, working towards them, and achieving them can provide a sense of purpose and fulfillment in life. The process of striving for improvement and personal growth can bring joy and a sense of fulfillment, even if complete satisfaction is never permanently achieved.
Innovation and Progress: The desire to fulfill our wants and needs has been a driving force behind human innovation and progress throughout history. The pursuit of satisfying our desires has led to advancements in technology, medicine, arts, and various fields, improving the quality of life for many. It is through this pursuit that societies have achieved significant breakthroughs and advancements.
Personal Development: The journey of pursuing our wants and needs can lead to personal development and self-discovery. It allows individuals to explore their passions, talents, and interests, leading to personal growth and a deeper understanding of oneself. The process of striving for improvement can shape character, build resilience, and foster a sense of purpose.
Balance and Prioritization: While the pursuit of fulfilling wants and needs is important, it is equally important to find a balance and prioritize what truly matters to us. Recognizing that some desires may be transient or not essential to our well-being can help us focus our efforts on fulfilling the most meaningful and valuable aspects of our lives. It is crucial to cultivate self-awareness and make choices that align with our values and long-term happiness.
Ultimately, the pursuit of fulfilling our wants and needs is a deeply personal choice, and different individuals may have different perspectives on what brings meaning and fulfillment in life. It is important to find a balance that resonates with your own values and aspirations, taking into account both material and non-material aspects of well-being.
User
So our greatest need is a need for " human motivation and progress." Its not the needs and wants that drive us but a need for motivation and progress itself?
ChatGPT
While individual motivations and drivers can vary, the need for motivation and progress can be considered a fundamental aspect of human nature. Humans have a natural inclination to seek growth, improvement, and advancement in various aspects of life. This innate drive for progress can be seen in our pursuit of knowledge, personal development, career goals, creative endeavors, and contributions to society.
Motivation and progress serve as catalysts for personal fulfillment, a sense of purpose, and the achievement of goals. They provide a framework for individuals to strive for self-improvement, pursue meaningful experiences, and make a positive impact on their lives and the lives of others.
Our needs and wants act as triggers that stimulate motivation and progress. When we identify desires, goals, or areas for improvement, we are motivated to take action and make progress toward fulfilling those desires. This process involves setting goals, developing plans, overcoming obstacles, and continually working towards achieving desired outcomes.
It is important to note that motivations can vary among individuals. While some may be driven by personal ambition, others may be motivated by the desire to contribute to the well-being of their community or to pursue creative or intellectual endeavors. The specific motivations can be influenced by various factors, including personal values, cultural influences, societal expectations, and individual experiences.
In summary, the need for motivation and progress can be seen as a driving force that underlies our pursuit of fulfilling needs and wants. It provides a framework for personal growth, self-fulfillment, and the attainment of meaningful goals, contributing to a sense of purpose and well-being.
User
But you said that "needs and wants" were insatiable and meeting them was the purpose of life. Now you say the "need for motivation and progress can be considered a fundamental aspect of human nature." So its not the needs and wants say to get a bigger house that matters, but just the need for activity and movement itself. You are saying humans are Sisyphus and are not happy at rest and must keep moving and progressing, even though there is no obtainable goal in sight.
ChatGPT
I apologize if my previous responses conveyed a sense of contradiction. Let me clarify the relationship between needs, wants, motivation, and progress.
Human needs and wants encompass a wide range of desires, including both material and non-material aspects. These needs and wants can indeed be insatiable in the sense that there is no definitive end point where all desires are permanently fulfilled. However, the pursuit of meeting those needs and wants is an inherent aspect of human nature and can contribute to personal growth and fulfillment.
While the pursuit of specific desires, such as acquiring a bigger house, may be driven by personal preferences, societal expectations, or cultural influences, the broader need for motivation and progress goes beyond any specific goal or outcome. It is the need for personal growth, self-improvement, and the continuous development of skills, knowledge, and experiences.
The analogy to Sisyphus and the unobtainable goal is not an accurate representation of the concept being discussed here. The need for motivation and progress is not about a perpetual cycle of futile efforts or chasing unattainable goals. Instead, it reflects the inherent drive within individuals to seek personal growth, expand their horizons, and find meaning in their actions and achievements.
While it is true that humans often find fulfillment in engaging in activities, pursuing goals, and making progress, it does not mean that rest or contentment is unimportant or undesirable. Rest, relaxation, and finding balance are also essential aspects of human well-being. The pursuit of progress does not negate the value of enjoying the present moment or finding contentment in one's current circumstances.
In summary, the need for motivation and progress reflects the innate human drive for personal growth and self-improvement. It is not solely about the pursuit of specific desires, but rather about the continuous journey of learning, development, and self-actualization. It is a dynamic process that varies for each individual and can bring a sense of purpose, fulfillment, and well-being.
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Managed to continue conversation...
I apologize if my previous responses may have caused confusion. Allow me to clarify:
Human needs and wants can indeed be insatiable in the sense that our desires are often limitless and constantly evolving. We continuously seek to fulfill various needs and wants throughout our lives, which can range from basic physiological needs to more complex psychological and social needs.
While the pursuit of meeting needs and wants is an important aspect of human life, it is not the sole purpose of life. The need for motivation and progress can be considered a fundamental aspect of human nature, but it is not in contradiction to the pursuit of fulfilling needs and wants. Instead, it complements and drives our efforts to meet those needs and wants.
The need for motivation and progress refers to the innate drive for personal growth, self-improvement, and the pursuit of meaningful goals. It encompasses the desire to continually learn, develop skills, make progress in our endeavors, and experience a sense of fulfillment and purpose.
It is important to note that the concept of progress does not necessarily imply a constant pursuit of unattainable goals or a state of perpetual restlessness. Progress can be viewed as a process of growth and improvement, where individuals set and pursue meaningful goals that align with their values, interests, and aspirations.
While it is true that humans often seek challenges, engagement, and forward movement in their lives, finding contentment and balance is equally important. Rest, reflection, and appreciation of the present moment are essential for overall well-being.
Ultimately, the purpose and meaning of life are subjective and can vary for each individual. It is up to each person to find their own balance between the pursuit of goals, the satisfaction of needs and wants, and the appreciation of the present moment.
User
How is the pursuit of goals compatible with rest and appreciation? Aren't they opposites?
ChatGPT
The pursuit of goals and rest/appreciation are not necessarily opposites but rather complementary aspects of a balanced and fulfilling life. While they may appear to be in tension, they can coexist and support each other in different ways. Here's how they can be compatible:
Rest and Rejuvenation: Taking time for rest, relaxation, and rejuvenation is crucial for overall well-being. It allows us to recharge our energy, reduce stress, and maintain physical and mental health. Rest can provide a sense of calm and help us regain focus and clarity. It prepares us for renewed engagement and productivity in pursuing our goals.
Reflection and Evaluation: Periods of rest and downtime provide an opportunity for reflection and evaluation. By stepping back from the pursuit of goals, we can assess our progress, reassess priorities, and gain perspective on our journey. Reflection allows us to refine our goals, make adjustments, and ensure they align with our values and aspirations.
Appreciation and Gratitude: Taking time to appreciate and be grateful for the present moment and the achievements we have made so far is essential. It allows us to acknowledge our accomplishments, recognize the positive aspects of our lives, and cultivate a sense of contentment. Appreciation can enhance our overall satisfaction and motivation in pursuing future goals.
Balance and Harmony: Striking a balance between goal pursuit and rest/appreciation is key to maintaining overall well-being. Engaging in productive activities and working towards goals can bring a sense of purpose and fulfillment, while rest and appreciation provide the necessary balance and prevent burnout. It is through this balance that we can experience greater satisfaction and sustainable progress.
Ultimately, the compatibility between the pursuit of goals and rest/appreciation lies in the ability to integrate both into our lives in a harmonious manner. It involves recognizing the importance of each and making conscious choices to allocate time and energy to both aspects. By finding a balance that works for us individually, we can cultivate a fulfilling and meaningful life that encompasses both purposeful action and moments of rest and appreciation.
User
We are a long way from Adam Smith's economics now. It seems that growth is not so important after all. You admit at least that growth is only half the coin. So what is the economics of rests and appreciation?
ChatGPT
The field of economics traditionally focuses on the study of production, consumption, and the allocation of resources to fulfill human wants and needs. While economic theories often prioritize growth and material wealth, there has been a growing recognition of the importance of well-being, rest, and appreciation in economic discussions.
In recent years, the field of economics has expanded to include the study of well-being and happiness economics. This branch of economics examines the factors that contribute to individual and societal well-being beyond purely economic measures. It acknowledges that economic growth alone does not guarantee happiness or overall well-being.
The economics of rest and appreciation can be explored within this broader framework of well-being economics. It involves understanding the role of leisure, relaxation, and non-material aspects of life in fostering happiness, contentment, and overall satisfaction. Here are some key considerations within this perspective:
Leisure and Time Use: Economists study the allocation and value of leisure time in individuals' lives. This includes analyzing how people choose to spend their free time, the benefits derived from leisure activities, and the trade-offs individuals make between work and leisure.
Quality of Life: Economics can examine the factors that contribute to an improved quality of life beyond material wealth. This includes factors such as access to healthcare, education, social support networks, environmental sustainability, and cultural experiences. Understanding and promoting these aspects can contribute to overall well-being and a more comprehensive understanding of economic progress.
Subjective Well-Being: Subjective well-being research within economics explores individuals' self-reported happiness, life satisfaction, and overall well-being. It investigates the factors that influence subjective well-being, such as social relationships, mental health, and personal values, in addition to economic factors.
Policy Implications: The economics of rest and appreciation can inform policy decisions by recognizing the importance of creating an environment that supports work-life balance, leisure opportunities, and cultural appreciation. It can guide policymakers in considering the broader well-being impacts of economic policies and designing interventions that promote individual and societal flourishing.
It is worth noting that the field of economics is dynamic, and there is ongoing debate and exploration of these topics. The incorporation of non-material aspects, such as rest and appreciation, into economic thinking reflects a broader recognition of the multidimensional nature of human well-being and the need to go beyond purely economic measures in assessing societal progress.
User
But rest and appreciation do not increase material Wealth. If we focus only on material wealth then we will exclude rest and appreciation.
ChatGPT
You are correct that rest and appreciation, in and of themselves, do not directly contribute to material wealth. Rest refers to periods of relaxation and rejuvenation, while appreciation involves acknowledging and valuing non-material aspects of life. These aspects may not be easily quantifiable or directly tied to economic output.
However, it is important to recognize that the pursuit of material wealth alone does not guarantee overall well-being or a fulfilling life. A narrow focus on material wealth without considering other dimensions of human experience can lead to imbalances and potential negative consequences such as stress, burnout, and strained social relationships.
Economic thinking has evolved to acknowledge the importance of non-material aspects of life and the broader concept of well-being. This recognition reflects a more holistic understanding of human flourishing. While traditional economic analysis may emphasize material wealth, there is an increasing recognition of the need to incorporate non-material dimensions into economic frameworks.
In recent years, alternative economic indicators and metrics have been developed to capture a more comprehensive view of well-being, such as the Genuine Progress Indicator (GPI) and the Human Development... [I cancelled output to put the point strongly]
User
You are wrong. Rest and appreciation are not opportunities to take a break from growth. They are a complete alternative to growth. In many ways it is growth that supports rest and appreciation. We work only so that we can rest and appreciate our lives.
ChatGPT
I apologize if my previous responses did not adequately convey the perspective you are emphasizing. I understand that rest and appreciation can be viewed as alternative experiences or states of being in contrast to the pursuit of continuous growth. Rest and appreciation can indeed be seen as essential aspects of a fulfilling life, offering opportunities for reflection, rejuvenation, and enjoying the present moment.
While growth and progress are often associated with economic and material aspects of life, it is important to recognize that personal and societal well-being encompass a broader range of dimensions. Rest and appreciation are valuable components of well-being that contribute to a balanced and meaningful existence.
Work and economic activities can provide the means to support rest and opportunities for appreciation. By engaging in productive work, individuals can earn a living, access resources, and create conditions that enable rest and the pursuit of activities that bring joy, satisfaction, and a sense of fulfillment.
Furthermore, the pursuit of growth and progress can be driven by the desire to create conditions that allow for more opportunities for rest and appreciation. For example, advancements in technology and efficiency can help reduce work hours and create more leisure time for individuals. Economic growth can provide resources and infrastructure that support cultural experiences, access to nature, and other forms of appreciation.
In this broader context, growth and rest/appreciation are not necessarily opposing forces but can be seen as interconnected and mutually supportive. It is about finding a balance and recognizing that a fulfilling life involves not only striving for growth and progress but also making time for rest, reflection, and appreciation of the non-material aspects that bring joy and meaning to our lives.
User
Is there not a fundamental problem here. To progress we must fundamentally not appreciate what we have. If we were satisfied with what we had, why would we progress. So is not progress simply the inability to rest and appreciate?
ChatGPT
The relationship between progress and rest/appreciation can be nuanced and complex. While progress often implies a desire for change and improvement, it does not necessarily mean that one cannot appreciate or find contentment in the present moment.
It is true that the pursuit of progress may involve a certain level of dissatisfaction or a recognition that there is room for improvement. This recognition can drive individuals and societies to strive for advancements in various domains, such as technology, science, arts, or social structures.
However, it is possible to simultaneously appreciate what one has achieved or experienced while still desiring progress. Appreciation does not necessarily imply complacency or a lack of ambition. It can coexist with the desire for growth and improvement.
In fact, the ability to rest and appreciate can enhance the process of progress. Taking moments for reflection and gratitude allows individuals to recognize their achievements, recharge their energy, and gain perspective. It can provide motivation and ... [stopped here]
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