Sunday, 21 July 2024

How much has the Jewish practice of Interest damaged the Jews, and did the Edomites have a different Law?

With reference to previous post on "letting go." Is this blog entry about letting go? Ideally yes. Jews in particular in this view need to let go of the division they have created between themselves and other people namely Jew and Gentile. This hard division is what ultimately manifests as the isolation, marginalisation, paranoia and fear the Jews have of "persecution". All Jewish persecution can be argued is just a projection of the division that they themselves have created. And the harder Jews hold to "being Jewish" the more their perceived separation and rejection by the world is complete. But that works in reverse too. The more people obsess about so called "Jews" and the role they play in the world the more likely the Jews are going to become scape-goats (deliberate irony) of all the world's problems. NAZI Germany the most famous (but by no means the only time) that the isolated separated communities of Jews have become the focus of blame and hatred. So this is a two sided letting go. People outside this division need to treat Jews as living breathing humans of intrinsic and equal worth, and Jews need to see non-Jews as living breathing humans of intrinsic and equal worth. Ideally we just remove the division all together, but this would be very harmful as it would remove the 1000s of years of history, culture and identity. What we need is to "let go" of the division as discussed before. But identity and division aside, the point in this blog is the practice of usury that Jewish people do not practice amongst themselves, but do practice outside their community. Now that is racism from the start. But this blog is looking not at who practices usury but whether usury itself is an evil that has brought trouble to the Jews (or anyone who practices it). The fact that Jews do not practice it amongst themselves suggests that it is deemed harmful. And the intrinsic belief amongst Jews that it is okay to harm Non-Jews is an obvious point here.

I am absolutely no scholar of any of this. I have just a superficial access to the English Bible and an opinion of Capitalism and the obvious harm it has brought the world, its people and life in general. But everyone has to start somewhere, and it seems few even bother to start which is leaving Capitalism and Jews uncriticised.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loans_and_interest_in_Judaism

So the Bible is pretty unequivocal about the extreme evil of usury: 

"He lends at interest and takes a profit. Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he is to be put to death; his blood will be on his own head." [Ezekiel 18:13]

This is what we call Capitalism today. That is capital that is invested with a view to either rent, interest or a dividend payment. In other words to lending to those in need, but expecting a return. Obviously those in need are not the right people to be expecting a return from.

Now the economist would argue that there are two types of usury. Lending to those in need, which should really be charity. And then the lending to business which does not "need", but it offers them the "choice" for investment and growth from which they can further profit even after paying back the interest. This would be deemed a win/win situation where the lender gains and the business gains. But is this distinction really borne out in reality. Especially in housing, which everyone "needs", it is normalised for private landlords to charge rent. This is Capitalism at its worst and most nakedly sinful.

Plus there is false economy here. Money lending increases the amount of money available which drives up prices so people end up "needing" to borrow to stay ahead and the "choice" is gone.

There is a genuine, and I believe pretty obviously engineered, exploitation of the poor under Capitalism to generate easy income for the rich. Basically the same as it has always been.

"The Torah and Talmud encourage lending money without interest. But the halakha (Jewish law) that prescribes interest-free loans applies to loans made to other Jews, however not exclusively" [ibid]

So non-interest loans are a recommendation to everyone, but under the halakha this becomes necessary for Jews. Also in lending it is key to ensure the welfare of the lender, you could  not for instance secure the loan against goods considered critical for well being. There is no racism here. Liberal, humane and correct. Here are the 3 given quotes:

24 If thou lend money to any of My people, even to the poor with thee, thou shalt not be to him as a creditor; neither shall ye lay upon him interest. [Exodus 22]

36 Take thou no interest of him or increase; but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee. [Leviticus 25]

21 Unto a foreigner thou mayest lend upon interest; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon interest; [Deuteronomy 23]

Interesting aside. 2 different types of interest mentioned in the wiki page:

neshekh (Hebrew: נשך), interest deducted in advance. marbit or tarbit (מרבית‎/תרבית), interest added to the amount that the borrower must repay both becoming modern ribit (ריבית) 

Summary of the next bit states that usury was the norm on the basis that the borrower could use the loan to increase the loan so it made sense to charge interest. You lend someone two rabbits, they will soon have many rabbits. The rate was often fixed by the state, 20% pa. is quoted for the Sumerians.

Fantastic resource here: Jewish Encyclopedia [usury]

In modern times the money might be invested, and the husband would draw the interest or dividends; but in all such cases the Mishnah says: "Let ground be bought and the husband receive the income!"

On as aside: interesting use of "Laborious." This concept is very much the import of "The Ragged-Trousered Philanthropists (1914)" where the low pay and arduousness of manual labour is seen as an injustice. In Capitalism there is no such concept a markets decide all value by exchange. The Capitalist argument would be if you think the job does not pay enough for the effort then reskill. But naturally manual labour is always needed and always over subscribed. Given the uncertainty of reskilling and the need to get food today this is not an simple option.

"The Mishnah goes even so far as to forbid an exchange of work between neighbouring farmers, where the later work is more laborious than the earlier."

Skipping a bit but even into the 1500s the debate within the Jewish community is not settled:

The Shulchan Aruch, a 16th-century text that was published after the writings of Maimonides, and which is viewed by the majority of Orthodox Judaism as being authoritative, expresses a different view on interest, stating that it is now allowable (when it was written) to lend on interest to non-Jews.[ibid]

So where this idea that I began with that the Jewish community in West Asia were the money lenders? It seems that most Jews disagreed with usury just like the Christians and the Muslims?

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This is certainly complex now.

(1) How did Capitalism start when literally everyone seems opposed to Usury?

(2) How did the Jews become blamed for Usury?

(3) Economically how do you deal with the situation where someone borrows something from you and then gets rich by it. Can you not reasonably claim something back as the owner? You could argue that you forfeited that profit yourself and that you are now the victim. A clear solution is to never lend. Sell at the price you think it is worth. Then if the buyer makes a huge profit you cannot then claim charity as the buyer would argue well why didn't you raise the selling price if you expected profit. Lending -- that is maintaining ownership while someone else possess and uses -- itself is the complex thing. 

So do we have an answer to the opening question yet? No answer at all yet. It cannot even be said yet that the Jews are the main offenders.

To be continued... 


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The other non-explicit branch of this is investigating the Edomites who I believe may have been the true descendants of Abraham and whose laws may be more truthful than Jacob's descendant Moses. Edomites are the descendants of Isaac's eldest son, Esau. Now the relationship between Esau and Jacob is a bit complex:

Genesis 25 says that Esau was forced to give up his birthright in return for life saving food. That is some brotherly love in Jacob!

28 And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of his venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob.

29 And Jacob sod pottage: and Esau came from the field, and he was faint:

30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom.

31 And Jacob said, Sell me this day thy birthright.

32 And Esau said, Behold, I am at the point to die: and what profit shall this birthright do to me?

33 And Jacob said, Swear to me this day; and he sware unto him: and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.

34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised his birthright.

But later on in Genesis 27 the issue of the birthright seems not settled because:

10 And thou shalt bring it to thy father, that he may eat, and that he may bless thee before his death.

11 And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man:

12 My father peradventure will feel me, and I shall seem to him as a deceiver; and I shall bring a curse upon me, and not a blessing.

13 And his mother said unto him, Upon me be thy curse, my son: only obey my voice, and go fetch me them.

14 And he went, and fetched, and brought them to his mother: and his mother made savoury meat, such as his father loved.

15 And Rebekah took goodly raiment of her eldest son Esau, which were with her in the house, and put them upon Jacob her younger son:

16 And she put the skins of the kids of the goats upon his hands, and upon the smooth of his neck:

17 And she gave the savoury meat and the bread, which she had prepared, into the hand of her son Jacob.

18 And he came unto his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I; who art thou, my son?

19 And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me.

20 And Isaac said unto his son, How is it that thou hast found it so quickly, my son? And he said, Because the LORD thy God brought it to me.

21 And Isaac said unto Jacob, Come near, I pray thee, that I may feel thee, my son, whether thou be my very son Esau or not.

22 And Jacob went near unto Isaac his father; and he felt him, and said, The voice is Jacob's voice, but the hands are the hands of Esau.

23 And he discerned him not, because his hands were hairy, as his brother Esau's hands: so he blessed him.

24 And he said, Art thou my very son Esau? And he said, I am.

25 And he said, Bring it near to me, and I will eat of my son's venison, that my soul may bless thee. And he brought it near to him, and he did eat: and he brought him wine, and he drank.

26 And his father Isaac said unto him, Come near now, and kiss me, my son.

27 And he came near, and kissed him: and he smelled the smell of his raiment, and blessed him, and said, See, the smell of my son is as the smell of a field which the LORD hath blessed:

28 Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine:

29 Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.

30 And it came to pass, as soon as Isaac had made an end of blessing Jacob, and Jacob was yet scarce gone out from the presence of Isaac his father, that Esau his brother came in from his hunting.

31 And he also had made savoury meat, and brought it unto his father, and said unto his father, Let my father arise, and eat of his son's venison, that thy soul may bless me.

32 And Isaac his father said unto him, Who art thou? And he said, I am thy son, thy firstborn Esau.

33 And Isaac trembled very exceedingly, and said, Who? where is he that hath taken venison, and brought it me, and I have eaten of all before thou camest, and have blessed him? yea, and he shall be blessed.

34 And when Esau heard the words of his father, he cried with a great and exceeding bitter cry, and said unto his father, Bless me, even me also, O my father.

35 And he said, Thy brother came with subtilty, and hath taken away thy blessing.

So Jacob is a dishonest, untrustworthy and deceitful man indeed to blackmail and cheat his own brother and father. It seems to me that Esau is clearly the rightful heir to Abraham and the Jews are descended from a shameful individual who goes on to other equally convincing things.

Who are the Edomites and what do they think of Usury?

Well not surprisingly apparently I'm not the first to flag this issue with Jacob and there seems to have been a rift between the Jews and Edomites ever since.

This website suggests that the Ishmaelites descended from the Egyptian Hagar and the Edomites united against the Jews. But I thought that the Edomites eventually assimilated into the Jews, and the history of Islam is its own tangled web.

But what did the Edomite laws say of usury. This would represent another branch of Abrahamic thought separate from Moses?

To be also continued...

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