ChatGPT on Daniel 8 for reference

Just noting that a key point here is the argument that if you can prophesy something then you have command over it What would be interesting is to see if other empires had their own prophesies about the Jews. One thing that just about anyone can predict is that Jews will get themselves into trouble at some stage. Does that give people power over the Jews. But it's an interesting point because science is very much of the same idea that if you can predict the future then you command the future.

There is an SRH issue here. Suppose a prophet prophesied their own destruction. Now science may argue that armed with this knowledge there will be a way out. But there is the Greek idea of Tragedy where you are doomed, meaning that whatever you do in ineffective or even contributes to your downfall. Knowledge is not necessarily a good thing. So its a rather limited idea to think that knowing the future indicates command of the future.

Now the Jewish idea is slightly different here. Prophesy is seen as evidence of God's command of the world. If God tells you of the rise and fall of an empire then that empire is subject to God. But actually God is not necessary here, all God is here is a projection of the idea. Any prophet can say that their insight was given to them by some external entity, but this does not follow logically and does not lend support to the prophesy. The prophet may actually have this ability in them self. The greater issue here is that God is just the "God of Jews" (in Judaic thinking) and so does not command other people who have their own God/gods. It is rather telling of the Jewish way of thinking that they seek proof that what they believe applies to all people placing them in a superior position. When Jesus discovered that actually God does apply to all people this came with a problem namely that Jews (as a people) were no longer favoured by God. You can't have Jesus offering people salvation at the same time as God choosing Jews. What does "being chosen" mean if you are getting salvation anyway chosen or not.

Anyway to the vision...

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Daniel's vision in Daniel 8 is one of the most symbolic and prophetic visions in the Bible. It focuses on events related to the rise and fall of empires and figures in the ancient world, particularly the Persian and Greek empires, with prophetic implications for the future. The vision contains symbolic imagery that is later interpreted by the angel Gabriel to Daniel. Here’s a breakdown of the vision and its meaning:

1. The Vision Itself (Daniel 8:1-14)

• The Ram with Two Horns (vs. 3-4):

  • Daniel sees a ram with two horns, one longer than the other, which represents the Medo-Persian Empire. The two horns symbolize the dual nature of the empire: the Medes and the Persians, with the Persians being the stronger power (the longer horn). The ram charges west, north, and south, signifying the empire's military conquests in various directions.

• The Goat with a Prominent Horn (vs. 5-8):

  • A male goat with a single, prominent horn between its eyes comes from the west and strikes the ram, shattering its two horns and defeating it. This symbolizes Greece under the leadership of Alexander the Great. The prominent horn represents Alexander himself, and the goat's swift movement reflects how quickly he conquered the Persian Empire.
  • After Alexander's death, the prominent horn breaks off, and four other horns grow in its place. These represent the four divisions of the Greek Empire after Alexander's death, as his empire was divided among his generals: Ptolemy, Seleucus, Lysimachus, and Cassander.

• The Little Horn (vs. 9-12):

  • Out of one of the four horns arises a "little horn" that grows exceedingly great, especially toward the south, the east, and the "Beautiful Land" (Israel). This "little horn" is generally identified with Antiochus IV Epiphanes, a ruler from the Seleucid Empire, who persecuted the Jewish people, desecrated the Temple, and sought to eradicate their worship.
  • Antiochus’s actions are described in this vision as casting down the stars (likely representing faithful Jews or leaders), halting the daily sacrifices in the temple, and setting up the "abomination that causes desolation" (profaning the Jewish Temple by sacrificing pigs, an unclean animal, on the altar).

• The Time Period (vs. 13-14):

  • The vision refers to a period of "2,300 evenings and mornings" during which the sanctuary would be desecrated. This period is often interpreted as relating to the time of Antiochus’s oppression, leading up to the Maccabean revolt and the rededication of the Temple in 164 B.C. (Hanukkah celebrates this rededication).

2. The Interpretation by Gabriel (Daniel 8:15-27)

• The angel Gabriel appears to Daniel to explain the vision:
  • The Ram represents the Medo-Persian Empire.
  • The Goat represents the Greek Empire, and the prominent horn is Alexander the Great.
  • The breaking of the horn and the emergence of four new horns signifies the division of Alexander's empire into four smaller kingdoms.
  • The "Little Horn" refers to a future king who will arise from one of these kingdoms, widely believed to be Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
  • The 2,300 evenings and mornings likely refer to a period of intense persecution, possibly the 6 to 7 years from when Antiochus first began to oppress the Jews until the Temple was cleansed.

Key Themes and Meaning

1. The Sovereignty of God over Nations: The vision shows that God is in control of history, even though powerful empires rise and fall. Empires like Persia and Greece, though mighty, are subject to God's plan.

2. Persecution of God’s People: The "little horn" (Antiochus IV) represents the persecution of the Jewish people and desecration of their temple. This foreshadows future periods of oppression, possibly even beyond Antiochus to future anti-God figures or systems of power that oppose God’s people.

3. Hope for Restoration: Despite the suffering and desecration, the vision offers hope for restoration. The sanctuary will be cleansed, signifying that God will eventually intervene, bring justice, and restore proper worship.

4. Prophetic Fulfillment and Foreshadowing: While the vision had an immediate fulfillment in the period of the Greeks and Antiochus IV, many theologians also see this vision as a foreshadowing of future events, such as the coming of future oppressive rulers or even the Antichrist at the end of time.

In summary, Daniel’s vision in Chapter 8 symbolically depicts the rise and fall of historical empires, specifically the Medo-Persian Empire and Greece, and predicts the persecution of the Jewish people by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. It emphasizes God’s sovereignty over world events and provides hope for the ultimate triumph of God’s people despite periods of intense suffering.