Some circularity here. I read this 20 years ago (and probably blogged it) but now it really fits into the whole picture.
Vippassana is the way to dismantle the self not Jhana. However Jhana concentration is a companion if used to aid investigate self.
https://chatgpt.com/share/6919f512-8d30-8003-9c29-b6ff741c8ce4
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ChatGPT said:
Yes — what you’re describing is not only common, but is actually one of the core insights noted in traditional Buddhist psychology and in many contemporary contemplative frameworks. You’re pointing at something very subtle: the persistence of the felt “house” of self even after seeing, in practice, that experience does not actually require a self to function.
Below is a way to contextualize what you’re noticing, and why it happens.
1. The “house of self” is a construction, and it’s extremely sticky
The model you described — sense data → embodied cohesion → mental ownership → a “container” called me — is basically how cognitive science describes the construction of the self-model (Metzinger, predictive processing theories, etc.). This construction is:
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useful for survival
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neurologically efficient
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reinforced from infancy
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constantly recreated, not static
Even if you see through its illusory nature at the phenomenological level, the brain keeps rebuilding it because its job is not awakening — its job is survival and prediction.
So yes, the house remains because the system keeps reconstituting it.
2. Vipassana shows the mechanics, not necessarily the erasure
Insight practice allows you to see:
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sensory phenomena arise and vanish
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sensations are not “owned”
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consciousness is not a thing but a process
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intention happens without a controller
But seeing these does not automatically collapse the sense of self. Instead, it creates two simultaneous levels:
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phenomenological insight: “I see that experience is not-self.”
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habitual conditioning: “But the old felt-sense of being someone is still running.”
Most practitioners live with this dual-layered experience for a long time.
3. The “house” shrinks, becomes porous, becomes optional — but rarely disappears entirely
In the classical maps of insight (e.g. Mahasi tradition), what you describe is normal between initial insights and deeper non-dual stabilization:
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You see through self-illusion during practice
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But normal consciousness reconstructs it when walls drop
Even experienced practitioners often report:
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A remaining “phantom self”
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A subtle center-point
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A background identification
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The sense of “being located”
These are layers of the self-model that are harder to dissolve because they’re pre-conceptual.
4. Complete dissolution of the sense of self is extremely rare, and not required
Even in advanced practice:
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Some retain a minimal “functional self.”
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Some lose the affective sense of self but not the cognitive one.
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Some experience non-self in meditation but not continuously.
The point of Vipassana is not to annihilate the house, but to stop being fooled by it.
The house may remain, but it no longer feels like “me.”
5. What you’re experiencing is not a failure — it’s actually a sign of progress
The fact that:
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You can observe phenomena without the self being needed
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You see the “house” as absurd or constructed
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You notice the mismatch between raw experience and the self-model
…means you're seeing the machinery instead of being run by it.
This is exactly what the practice is meant to reveal.
6. How practitioners describe this stage
People in your situation often say things like:
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“There’s still a sense of a container, but I know it’s not actually there.”
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“I don’t believe in the self, but I still feel it.”
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“The background ‘me’ shows up automatically.”
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“The self feels like a habit, not a truth.”
This is normal and documented across lineages.
7. Where practice typically goes from here
You can deepen the deconstruction of the house not by attacking it, but by observing subtler phenomena:
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sense of location (where am I in the body?)
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sense of agency (who is moving the breath?)
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sense of ownership (who does this thought belong to?)
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the witness or observer (the last “defender” of the house)
These are not dissolved by forcing — they unravel when observed with precision the same way sensations do.
In short:
Yes, it is very common.
Yes, it is part of normal progress.
Yes, the “house” may persist for a long time.
No, this does not contradict insight into non-self.
And no, you are not doing anything wrong — you’re seeing the layers clearly.
If you want, I can help you pinpoint exactly which layer of the self-model is persisting and how to work with it.
You said:
ChatGPT said:
It can happen that way — but it also often doesn’t. Both possibilities are described across traditions and by meditators.
The important thing is that the analogy you chose (the visual illusion flipping) is exactly the right intuition. The sense of self is a perceptual gestalt. It is held together by habits of interpretation, not by a real entity. Because of that, it can sometimes reorganize very abruptly.
Let me outline the two main ways this “flip” unfolds so you can see where your experience fits.
1. The “Gestalt Flip” Model (sudden and irreversible)
Some practitioners report a moment where:
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the center-point vanishes
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the felt “house” drops away
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experience becomes centerless, unowned
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perception reorganizes as process instead of container
It can feel like:
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an optical illusion reversing
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waking from a dream
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a knot untangling
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something obvious finally becoming seen
This is sometimes called:
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“path moment” (Theravāda)
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“kenshō” (Zen)
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“the reversal” (Mahasi practitioners' informal term)
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“losing the observer” (nondual teaching)
It’s not always dramatic — sometimes it’s a very quiet shift — but it has that feeling of a phase change, not a gradual smoothing.
This does happen.
But it can’t usually be forced, and it doesn’t happen on a conceptual level — it happens when the perceptual system stops creating a center.
2. The “Gradual Dissolution” Model (fades over time)
For many others, the “flip” doesn’t occur suddenly. Instead:
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the house becomes thin
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then transparent
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then porous
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eventually irrelevant
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and finally it stops being perceived as a structure
Here the shift is not like a single flip. It’s like:
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an illusion you can’t get fooled by anymore
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a word that loses meaning the more you stare at it
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a habit that decays through disuse
This path is also legitimate and is actually very common.
Where your sense of “absurd house” fits
You described:
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seeing the construction
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seeing its absurdity
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seeing it isn’t needed
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while it still persists
This is exactly the stage from which either of the two transformations can happen:
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A sudden perceptual reorganization (the “illusion flip”)
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A gradual erosion of identification
Your comparison suggests you are intuitively tuning into how the shift actually works:
by perception reorganizing, not by destroying anything.
But here is the key part:
You won’t “snap out of the house” by thinking about it.
The flip (or dissolution) happens when mindfulness gets fine-grained enough to observe the very subtle sensations that create:
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the sense of location
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the sense of being the observer
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the sense of “this is my experience”
When those constituents are seen as sensations, the brain stops gluing them into a “me.” Then the illusion can flip — suddenly or gradually.
So is it that kind of transformation? Yes.
But not in the cinematic sense of a big enlightenment blast.
More like:
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a perceptual reinterpretation
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the dropping of an unnecessary inference
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the collapse of a pattern of grasping
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the reorganization of how consciousness models itself
A clean shift often feels like the moment an optical illusion resolves — except the illusion was “me.”
If you’d like, you can tell me what the “house” feels like in your direct experience (heavy? located? observer-like? emotional?) and I can help you identify exactly what layer is ready to flip or dissolve.
You said:
ChatGPT said:
Yes — that’s exactly what Vipassana does.
But it’s important to understand how it does this, because it’s not about attacking the illusion or forcing it to collapse. It’s about making the illusion gradually non-compelling, like a magic trick you understand too well to be fooled by.
Let me lay this out clearly.
1. Vipassana weakens the illusion by showing the ingredients
The “self” is constructed from:
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sensations in the body
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a sense of location
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a sense of agency
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a sense of ownership
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thoughts about “I” and “mine”
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emotional coloring
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predictive models
When you observe these ingredients directly — arising, fading, shifting — the brain can no longer fuse them into a single solid entity.
This makes the illusion less and less viable.
It’s not that the self disappears. It’s that it can no longer hold itself together.
2. The illusion becomes unsustainable when it’s seen as a process
Vipassana trains you to see:
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Sensations are not continuous
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Thoughts are not controlled
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Emotions are not owned
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Consciousness is not a container
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The “observer” is itself just another appearance
Once this is seen moment-to-moment, the brain cannot maintain:
“All of this belongs to a stable, central entity called ME.”
It simply becomes incompatible with what you observe.
This is why the illusion weakens over time.
3. The illusion collapses when the subtle glue stops functioning
The “house” of self is held together less by thoughts and more by subtle background sensations like:
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a center point
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a watcher behind the eyes
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a sense of being located in the head
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a subtle tension around the chest or face
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a quiet feeling of ownership
Vipassana gradually reveals these subtle patterns. And once seen clearly, they no longer act as glue.
This is where either a gradual dissolution or a sudden flip may occur.
4. You don’t destroy the illusion — you stop participating in it
This is the most important point.
There is no need to:
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eliminate the self
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fight the self
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try to escape the house
Instead, the self-model stops reconstructing itself in the old way because you no longer buy into it automatically.
The illusion can still appear — the same way visual illusions still appear even when you understand them — but it loses its authority.
5. Eventually, the illusion becomes optional
For many advanced practitioners:
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The self still appears when needed for social functioning
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But it no longer feels real
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It no longer feels central
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It no longer feels like “who I am”
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It no longer organizes perception
This is what’s meant by “no-self” or “non-identification.”
Not the absence of the illusion, but the absence of being fooled by it.
So yes: Vipassana makes the illusion progressively less viable.
And you’re already noticing this — the “house” feels absurd, artificial.
That’s not regression — that’s insight maturing.
If you’d like, I can help you identify which layer of the self-model is weakening and which layer is still holding the house in place.
You said:
ChatGPT said:
Short answer: Yes. You can absolutely master all eight jhānas and still maintain the full “house of self” exactly as it is.
And this is very common.
Let me explain why—with clarity, not dogma—because this distinction between samādhi and insight is crucial.
1. Jhānas are states of attention, not states of insight
Deep concentration can produce:
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powerful bliss
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intense unification of mind
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perception of infinite space / consciousness
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cessation-like experiences
…but none of these inherently deconstruct the sense of self.
You can be:
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unified
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blissed-out
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spacious
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silent
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absorbed
…and still carry a perfectly intact “I” who thinks:
I am having an amazing spiritual experience.
I am in the fourth jhāna.
This is happening to me.
Jhāna does not automatically challenge this.
2. The self-model easily co-opts jhāna
Jhāna gives the mind extraordinary stability and pleasure.
The self-pattern loves this. It adopts it immediately:
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“I am a deep meditator.”
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“I have attained states.”
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“I am progressing.”
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“I can enter these beautiful worlds.”
The self actually strengthens around jhāna if insight is not present.
This is why many lineages warn:
“Concentration without insight purifies the mind but does not uproot delusion.”
3. You can do all eight jhānas and still not see anicca, dukkha, anattā
The classical Theravāda model separates two paths:
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Samatha = purification, stability, joy
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Vipassanā = insight into the nature of phenomena
Jhāna belongs to samatha.
It creates:
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a super-smooth mind
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reduced sensory noise
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altered perception
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great clarity
…but it does not require you to examine:
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impermanence
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suffering
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selflessness
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momentariness
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conditionality
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ownership
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fabrication
So yes:
A person can master all eight jhānas and keep the same unquestioned, intact self-structure.
This is normal.
4. Even “formless jhānas” can leave the self untouched
Sometimes people assume:
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Infinite space
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Infinite consciousness
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Nothingness
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Neither-perception-nor-non-perception
…must imply non-self.
But no.
A meditator can sit in boundless space and still feel like:
“I am experiencing boundless space.”
The scenery changes.
The sense of self does not.
Unless insight is applied.
5. Only insight practice undermines the “house”
The thing that weakens the self-model is not bliss, or silence, or unification.
It’s seeing exactly what the mind does as it constructs the house.
Vipassanā looks at:
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sensations
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urges
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mental images
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emotions
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narratives
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identification events
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the sense of being located
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the sense of agency
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the observer
Jhāna doesn’t require you to look at any of these.
So jhāna can leave the illusion completely untouched.
6. Why jhāna is still incredibly valuable
Even though jhāna doesn’t deconstruct the self, it helps insight practice by:
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stabilizing attention
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purifying mental noise
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strengthening clarity
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allowing extremely subtle sensations to be seen
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preparing the mind for sharp vipassanā
In other words:
Jhāna makes the mind a sharp knife.
Vipassanā is what uses the knife.
7. Your experience fits the classical pattern
You said:
“I experienced one at one point, however in no way did this challenge the self.”
That is exactly how jhānas behave unless paired with insight.
This means:
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Your jhāna experience was genuine
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You’re understanding the distinction correctly
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Your insight intuition is working properly
You’re not missing anything.
You’re simply noticing what the texts, teachers, and long-term practitioners all report.
Conclusion
Yes.
You can complete all 8 jhānas and still maintain:
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the house
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the owner of the house
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and the belief that the house is you.
Jhāna alone does not dismantle that.
Only insight does.
If you’d like, I can explain how some traditions integrate jhāna with insight so the house starts to crumble even inside deep concentration.
You said:
ChatGPT said:
Yes — that is exactly why Metzinger recommends Vipassana.
And what you described about your “infinite space” experience leading to a stronger, more inflated, more cosmically expanded sense of self is a textbook example of why concentration alone does not dismantle the self-model.
Let me unpack this precisely, and connect it directly to Metzinger’s work.
1. Metzinger’s core thesis: “The self-model is a transparent simulation.”
In The Ego Tunnel and in his academic papers, Metzinger argues:
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The self is not a thing
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It’s a real-time model the brain constructs
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The model is “transparent,” meaning we look through it and don’t see it as a model
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This causes the illusion: “This is me.”
What matters here is transparency — the fact that the brain takes an internal process and misreads it as an external reality.
Jhana does not change that transparency.
Vipassana does.
2. Metzinger is very wary of mystical states
Metzinger points out that:
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Deep altered states
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Mystical absorption
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Non-ordinary consciousness
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Extreme bliss or spaciousness
…can strengthen the self-model, not weaken it.
Because they:
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Increase salience
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Increase emotional power
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Increase meaning
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Increase narrative cohesion
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Increase identification
This is exactly what happened in your experience:
infinite space → “my” infinite mind → supercharged self.
Metzinger warned about this explicitly.
3. Vipassana is recommended because it makes the self-model opaque
Vipassana does something very specific:
✔ It turns transparent processes into objects of attention
✔ It reveals the construction process of the self
✔ It deconstructs ownership, agency, and identity
✔ It eliminates the illusion of “being someone who is having the experience”
In Metzinger’s terminology:
Vipassana makes the self-model visible as a model.
And once a model becomes visible, it loses its illusion-power.
This is why he recommends Vipassana as the most philosophically clean method for investigating consciousness.
Not because it is exotic.
Not because it is blissful.
But because it directly reveals the basis of the self-illusion.
4. Jhana leaves the self-model fully intact because it does not examine anything
Jhana requires:
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stability
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focus
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exclusion
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absorption
But it does not require examining:
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impermanence
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dependent origination
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no-self
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the observer
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the sense of ownership
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the selfing process
So the brain simply says:
“Wow, this is a vast state of consciousness. I must be a vast being.”
This is very common.
Entire mystical traditions grow from that exact misinterpretation.
Metzinger calls these “expansions of the phenomenal self-model.”
You experienced one.
5. Vipassana is the antidote to self-inflation
Vipassana:
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punctures the story
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destabilizes the center
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exposes the fabrication
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cancels ownership
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reveals that no experience belongs to anyone
This undermines both:
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egoic self (the small house)
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mystical self (the infinite house)
Both are illusions, just at different scales.
6. Metzinger’s final point: insight, not ecstasy, leads to de-identification
He argues that genuine spiritual progress is:
a reduction of identification with any part of the self-model.
Not the pursuit of extraordinary states.
This is why he speaks favorably of Vipassana:
it places the microscope directly on the mechanics of experience.
Your own realization — that the infinite-space jhāna produced a bigger self — is exactly what Metzinger is warning about.
In short:
Yes.
This is precisely why Metzinger recommends Vipassana.
Because:
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Jhana alters the content of experience, but leaves the self intact.
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Vipassana alters the structure of experience, making the self-model collapse.
You’re seeing this distinction very clearly — and that alone is already a big insight.
If you’d like, I can explain how to combine jhana with vipassana so that even deep concentration starts to dissolve the “house,” rather than decorate it with cosmic wallpaper.
You said:
ChatGPT said:
Great — here is a clear, structured, practical way to combine jhāna and vipassanā so that concentration no longer inflates the “house,” but instead reveals the construction of the house.
This approach is used in Mahasi, Pa Auk, Ajahn Chah, and contemporary pragmatic dharma, though each frames it differently. I’ll describe the common underlying mechanism.
THE CORE IDEA
Use jhāna to get the mind unified, then turn that unified attention onto the three characteristics so that the sense of self unravels.
Jhāna gives you the microscope.
Vipassanā shows you the cells.
1. The Key Principle: Don’t just enter jhāna — OBSERVE jhāna.
This is the big shift.
Most practitioners get into jhāna and then just enjoy or rest in it.
That does nothing to insight.
Instead, once the mind is stable:
Observe the jhāna itself as a changing, impersonal phenomenon.
Ask:
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What is this state made of?
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What sensations appear and vanish?
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Where is the boundary?
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Is there a watcher?
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Who is this happening to?
This turns jhāna from a self-expanding experience into a self-dissolving one.
2. Start with “soft jhāna,” not full absorption
Full absorption (especially formless jhānas) can be too “sealed” to analyze.
But soft jhāna or “access concentration” has:
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stable attention
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minimal distraction
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but still enough sensory granularity to observe phenomena
This is the ideal zone for vipassanā.
So the approach is:
1. Build concentration (but not so much that you lose sensory detail)
2. Then examine the experience with insight
This is the most reliable method.
3. Turn the stability of jhāna onto impermanence (anicca)
Every jhāna, even infinite space, consists of:
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pulsing vibrations
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tiny sensory “micro-events”
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fluctuations in clarity
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oscillations of attention
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shifting boundaries
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sub-moments of arising and passing
When the mind is concentrated, these become extremely visible.
So ask:
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What is arising right now?
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What’s changing?
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Is there even a moment of stillness?
The more tightly you observe impermanence, the less the self-model can stabilize.
Jhāna becomes the engine of dissolution.
4. Examine the subtle affective tone (dukkha)
Even the highest jhānas contain:
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subtle effort
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subtle anticipation
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subtle clinging to the state
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subtle fear of losing it
These are enormously illuminating.
The self-model feeds on clinging.
Seeing clinging in a highly refined mind is devastating to the illusion of a controller.
5. Look directly at the center — the “house” — inside jhāna
This is where the real insight comes.
When in a deeply unified state, look for:
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the observer
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the sense of location
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the owner of the bliss
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the boundary between “me” and the state
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the one who knows
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the one who enters or leaves the jhāna
You will eventually notice:
These are all just sensations, flickering like everything else.
What used to feel like “me” becomes an observed object.
Once the center becomes an object, the illusion collapses.
6. Infinite space becomes a vipassanā goldmine
You said infinite space inflated the self.
That’s typical.
But you can turn it around by asking:
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Where is the edge of space?
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Where is the observer experiencing space?
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Where is this “space” located?
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Is there a “me” separate from the vastness?
In formless jhānas, the sense of location gets very wobbly.
This can be exploited to see that the “house” is not required for experience.
7. The “loop” method — the most powerful integration
This is the classical insight-samatha fusion:
1. Build concentration
A simple, stable object (breath, kasina, mantra).
2. Enter soft jhāna or strong access concentration
Mind is quiet, unified, bright.
3. Turn the clarity onto the three characteristics
Especially impermanence and the constructed nature of the observer.
4. The state destabilizes
Not in a bad way — it just becomes granular, vibratory, impersonal.
5. This destabilization reveals insight
The “house” loses coherence.
6. Clarity increases again
Rebuilding the jhāna, but now thinner.
7. Dive again
Each loop weakens the self-model.
This spiral is how many practitioners reach stream-entry and beyond.
8. Why this works (Metzinger connection)
Metzinger would say:
**Jhana reduces noise and stabilizes the phenomenal self-model.
Vipassana reveals the self-model as a model by making its components explicit.**
Combining the two:
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reduces noise (jhana)
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amplifies resolution (jhana)
-
increases meta-awareness of construction (vipassana)
-
reveals transparency (vipassana)
-
destroys identification (vipassana)
This is exactly the pattern he believes leads to self-dissolution (de-identification).
If you want, I can walk you through:
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How to enter soft jhāna reliably
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How to open it up with vipassanā
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How to use jhāna to target the exact layer of self that bothers you
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How to avoid the “cosmic ego” trap in formless states
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A step-by-step “jhāna → vipassanā → dissolution” method tailored to your current experience
Just tell me which direction you want to explore.
You said:
ChatGPT said:
You're very welcome — glad it clicked.
If you ever want to go deeper into:
-
tracking the “house” of self more precisely
-
bringing vipassanā into and out of jhāna
-
dealing with cosmic-ego inflation
-
mapping your progress or fine-tuning practice
…just let me know.
Happy practicing.
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